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	<title>Comments for The Grok Project</title>
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	<link>http://grokproject.net</link>
	<description>The Human Story of Curiosity and Ingenuity</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 03:48:26 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on On &#8220;Becoming Human&#8221; &#8211; Part 2 by Ian</title>
		<link>http://grokproject.net/2010/02/24/on-becoming-human-part-2/#comment-292</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 03:48:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grokproject.net/?p=531#comment-292</guid>
		<description>Thank you so much for the very thoughtful comment!  I will try to tie into it in &quot;part 3&quot;.

I&#039;m on a bit of a blogging hiatus at the moment (it would seem), but The Grok Project will continue soon!  I&#039;m just a tad overwhelmed at the moment.  ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you so much for the very thoughtful comment!  I will try to tie into it in &#8220;part 3&#8243;.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m on a bit of a blogging hiatus at the moment (it would seem), but The Grok Project will continue soon!  I&#8217;m just a tad overwhelmed at the moment.  <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on On &#8220;Becoming Human&#8221; &#8211; Part 2 by Polina</title>
		<link>http://grokproject.net/2010/02/24/on-becoming-human-part-2/#comment-291</link>
		<dc:creator>Polina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 04:39:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grokproject.net/?p=531#comment-291</guid>
		<description>I think your approach to this topic is completely reasonable. I agree about the emotional pain-physical pain connection.

I have often wondered how we get to the more complex behaviors. It&#039;s possible that when a child learns that he shouldn&#039;t do something he later associates his discomfort with the emotional pain of his mother berating him, which he associates with the physical sensation of her loud yelling or not getting some sweet he wanted.

At first, achievements probably are simply a way to get pleasure or avoid pain, but them as we are rewarded for achieving goals more and more, the achievement probably becomes the &quot;pleasure response&quot;, whether we know it or not. 

In fact, it has to.

We get to a point in our development when mommy will no longer congratulate us for going to the bathroom on our own.  This must be a big shock, actually. I think it&#039;s the first time a child learns he has to do something without expecting praise or a treat.

I remember several such discussions with parents who are annoyed that their children will not do anything without expecting some positive feedback for it.

So, I think how I would break it down is this:

(yes, I realize this is simplistic, and that some of it has been said before...)

1) Level 1 Learning - I react to and perhaps learn from: Obvious physical feedback - burned hand. Spanked by a parent, Given extra treat by a parent. Why things happen is almost irrelevant to me. They just do. My body is built to make me avoid pain and reach towards pleasure. 

2) Level 2 learning - I react to and learn from: Things I associate with level 1. Angry authority figure. Hot stove. Mommy praising me. I am able to separate what I want from the fact that others don&#039;t want the same as me. I can connect pleasure to good feedback and pain to bad feedback, as long as the feedback is consistent, and does not take long to occur.

3) Level 3 - I react to and learn from: Things we associate with level 2. Being aware that someone would be angry or happy that I did something. Doing things to avoid getting caught or getting shunned by peers. Achievement of goals is, in general, good. They might be someone else&#039;s goals or rules, but if I learn them and live by them, I will get what I want (or at least not get hurt). I am probably able to manipulate others to do what I want, but probably not smart enough to recognize there is something outside the patterns I am used to. I can probably comprehend symbols and language and that things stand for other things.

4) Level 4 - Initiative. I learn because I am now capable of setting my own high-level goals for what I want. I recognize patterns that have no obvious survival advantage for me and study them. I create models of how the universe works in my head. While I, of course, react to the lower levels because my survival demands it (and because I am used to it), I am no longer a complete slave to my impulses.

5) Level 6 - I learn because I recognize its intrinsic value, not just because it will bring me survival advantage or help me to achieve some specific goal. (Though it may do this, also).

Where I am slightly shaky is how 1 gets to 2. Once you get to two, the others follow as simply more complex neural connections. Associations with other associations.

Even birds know to look for &quot;clues of aggression&quot; or &quot;clues of more food&quot;. We do the same. 

But we are somehow wired to be more discerning than most animals, who may or may not see the same things we do. Also, our vision is quite good.  We pick up on subtle clues that help us survive because those of us who could see and make the connections were the ones who survived. Observation, both physical and metaphorical, I think, is what may have given us the edge. 

I admit I am biased because I believe knowledge gathering is the ultimate purpose of humankind, but I don&#039;t think I am far wrong in this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your approach to this topic is completely reasonable. I agree about the emotional pain-physical pain connection.</p>
<p>I have often wondered how we get to the more complex behaviors. It&#8217;s possible that when a child learns that he shouldn&#8217;t do something he later associates his discomfort with the emotional pain of his mother berating him, which he associates with the physical sensation of her loud yelling or not getting some sweet he wanted.</p>
<p>At first, achievements probably are simply a way to get pleasure or avoid pain, but them as we are rewarded for achieving goals more and more, the achievement probably becomes the &#8220;pleasure response&#8221;, whether we know it or not. </p>
<p>In fact, it has to.</p>
<p>We get to a point in our development when mommy will no longer congratulate us for going to the bathroom on our own.  This must be a big shock, actually. I think it&#8217;s the first time a child learns he has to do something without expecting praise or a treat.</p>
<p>I remember several such discussions with parents who are annoyed that their children will not do anything without expecting some positive feedback for it.</p>
<p>So, I think how I would break it down is this:</p>
<p>(yes, I realize this is simplistic, and that some of it has been said before&#8230;)</p>
<p>1) Level 1 Learning &#8211; I react to and perhaps learn from: Obvious physical feedback &#8211; burned hand. Spanked by a parent, Given extra treat by a parent. Why things happen is almost irrelevant to me. They just do. My body is built to make me avoid pain and reach towards pleasure. </p>
<p>2) Level 2 learning &#8211; I react to and learn from: Things I associate with level 1. Angry authority figure. Hot stove. Mommy praising me. I am able to separate what I want from the fact that others don&#8217;t want the same as me. I can connect pleasure to good feedback and pain to bad feedback, as long as the feedback is consistent, and does not take long to occur.</p>
<p>3) Level 3 &#8211; I react to and learn from: Things we associate with level 2. Being aware that someone would be angry or happy that I did something. Doing things to avoid getting caught or getting shunned by peers. Achievement of goals is, in general, good. They might be someone else&#8217;s goals or rules, but if I learn them and live by them, I will get what I want (or at least not get hurt). I am probably able to manipulate others to do what I want, but probably not smart enough to recognize there is something outside the patterns I am used to. I can probably comprehend symbols and language and that things stand for other things.</p>
<p>4) Level 4 &#8211; Initiative. I learn because I am now capable of setting my own high-level goals for what I want. I recognize patterns that have no obvious survival advantage for me and study them. I create models of how the universe works in my head. While I, of course, react to the lower levels because my survival demands it (and because I am used to it), I am no longer a complete slave to my impulses.</p>
<p>5) Level 6 &#8211; I learn because I recognize its intrinsic value, not just because it will bring me survival advantage or help me to achieve some specific goal. (Though it may do this, also).</p>
<p>Where I am slightly shaky is how 1 gets to 2. Once you get to two, the others follow as simply more complex neural connections. Associations with other associations.</p>
<p>Even birds know to look for &#8220;clues of aggression&#8221; or &#8220;clues of more food&#8221;. We do the same. </p>
<p>But we are somehow wired to be more discerning than most animals, who may or may not see the same things we do. Also, our vision is quite good.  We pick up on subtle clues that help us survive because those of us who could see and make the connections were the ones who survived. Observation, both physical and metaphorical, I think, is what may have given us the edge. </p>
<p>I admit I am biased because I believe knowledge gathering is the ultimate purpose of humankind, but I don&#8217;t think I am far wrong in this.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Phonograph Materials by Ian</title>
		<link>http://grokproject.net/2010/02/09/phonograph-materials/#comment-286</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:12:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grokproject.net/?p=516#comment-286</guid>
		<description>Thanks!  I&#039;ll keep that option open, but I worry that that material might not be stiff enough, unless I somehow pre-tension it.  My concern is that it will absorb or reflect too much sound, especially in the higher frequencies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks!  I&#8217;ll keep that option open, but I worry that that material might not be stiff enough, unless I somehow pre-tension it.  My concern is that it will absorb or reflect too much sound, especially in the higher frequencies.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Phonograph Materials by Stan Schleifer</title>
		<link>http://grokproject.net/2010/02/09/phonograph-materials/#comment-285</link>
		<dc:creator>Stan Schleifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grokproject.net/?p=516#comment-285</guid>
		<description>Ian,
Try the plastic cover from a peanut can (or similar) for a diaphragm. It is more flexible than a CD cover.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian,<br />
Try the plastic cover from a peanut can (or similar) for a diaphragm. It is more flexible than a CD cover.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Cartesian Divers by David</title>
		<link>http://grokproject.net/2010/01/20/cartesian-divers/#comment-281</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:39:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grokproject.net/?p=440#comment-281</guid>
		<description>If you use an eyedropper as the &quot;diver&quot; and a 2 liter soda bottle as the container I think you will find the project simple, quick, and clean.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you use an eyedropper as the &#8220;diver&#8221; and a 2 liter soda bottle as the container I think you will find the project simple, quick, and clean.</p>
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		<title>Comment on An Excursion to the 19th Century by Ian</title>
		<link>http://grokproject.net/2010/02/04/an-excursion-to-the-19th-century/#comment-280</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 14:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grokproject.net/?p=496#comment-280</guid>
		<description>Thank you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you!</p>
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		<title>Comment on An Excursion to the 19th Century by usernamenumber</title>
		<link>http://grokproject.net/2010/02/04/an-excursion-to-the-19th-century/#comment-279</link>
		<dc:creator>usernamenumber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 10:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grokproject.net/?p=496#comment-279</guid>
		<description>Fascinating stuff, keep it up!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating stuff, keep it up!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Beef Tongue by Stan Schleifer</title>
		<link>http://grokproject.net/2010/01/29/beef-tongue/#comment-276</link>
		<dc:creator>Stan Schleifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 03:34:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grokproject.net/?p=484#comment-276</guid>
		<description>As a child growing up on the lower east side of Manhattan (for the most part), I was often served tongue, usually in a sandwich with mustard. It was good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a child growing up on the lower east side of Manhattan (for the most part), I was often served tongue, usually in a sandwich with mustard. It was good.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Ancient Computing Revolution by Ian</title>
		<link>http://grokproject.net/2010/01/18/ancient-computing-revolution/#comment-275</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 03:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grokproject.net/?p=423#comment-275</guid>
		<description>Much appreciated.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Much appreciated.  <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on Nerd Fun Boston at the EVA Lab by JeffR</title>
		<link>http://grokproject.net/2010/01/28/nerd-fun-boston-at-the-eva-lab/#comment-274</link>
		<dc:creator>JeffR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 23:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grokproject.net/?p=478#comment-274</guid>
		<description>Looks a lot of fun... more so because it&#039;s so close to home!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks a lot of fun&#8230; more so because it&#8217;s so close to home!</p>
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